have you ever seen a “conversation” about men’s rights?
Yes, many. Like more parental leave for fathers. Never seen a legitimate discussion attract hate from progressive circles, though, if that’s what you meant to bring up, unless you’re talking about fringe communities of weirdos on Tumblr. Also never seen any hate from the left about gender studies. Or any studies in general, really, except for pseudoscience atrocities like phrenology.
terrible people are everywhere on every side. if you are convinced your side has no bad actors, no bigotry or evil, you are deluding yourself.
That’s obviously true and at the same time a misleading framing. Yes, every big group of humans includes at least one shitbag. Some groups are clearly more concentrated on that, though.
i’m hated by both sides because i don’t outright dismiss anything that isn’t 100% alongside the popular narrative
Are you really, though? By the whole left? Or even by a measurable chunk of it? And are you positively sure it’s because you “don’t outright dismiss anything outside the popular narrative”? Because I’m also not aligned on everything and yet I get along fine with all social movements.
like i said, i could easily frame a more aggressive criticism of people on the right.
but i don’t think it’s misleading to state that this perspective is necessary. it is why i specified at the start that it may depend heavily on the specific community. there are billions of people forming their own groups floating around rather large and poorly defined concepts.
my personal experience has been one of violent and aggressive vitriol any time i’ve even suggested that attention go towards men. even the slightest nuance to a conversation being shut down with extreme of insulting claims. online and offline, i’ve been told directly that i shouldn’t even be allowed to speak or have an opinion on anything related to gender or gender related issues, because of the body i was born into.
i don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that my overwhelming experience over the years has not shown contrary to the things i’ve stated here. if it isn’t relevant in your life, perhaps i just had many unfortunate situations. i cannot ignore them, or the fact that they are generally excused almost every time they are brought up, usually with the reasoning that it’s ok because of the direction of the action.
again, i know i’m not the only person with this experience, as i mentioned that one man killed himself because of the very thing i’m attempting to state.
i don’t think a critical view at the bad actors in our own spectrum of politics should be faux pas. i also don’t think i should need ten miles of red tape around any mention of an issue that affects men or boys because i’m worried of being affiliated with people and opinions that i hate.
again, if that’s not your experience, then that is fortunate for the area and people your experience revolves around.
i think my experience, even if it were the only one of its kind, should be enough to excuse saying “maybe just make sure you aren’t doing the thing the people you criticize do, while using the same excuses they do.”
because it is a thing that exists and has affected me personally, as well as people i’ve known and loved while growing up. a history of having my reality denied has made it difficult for me to not be adamant about it.
i think my experience, even if it were the only one of its kind, should be enough to excuse saying “maybe just make sure you aren’t doing the thing the people you criticize do, while using the same excuses they do.”
That invitation for introspection is a homeopathic dose of the picture you’re drawing, though.
You literally started this discussion with a sentence that puts zero nuance into the claim that both sides bring hate to gender studies discussions. Intentionally or not, you’re framing both sides as spewing comparable amounts of hate. We know that one side is a fire-hose aimed directly at our faces, so I think the criticism that you get is not because people fundamentally disagree with you that “the left can be intolerant” but because that’s tone deaf in this context.
Let’s step back and remember: this is yet another news article about extremist bigots attacking people, and here you are investing most of your energy in this thread to argue that the left can be intolerant. Technically valid, sure. But do you not see the message it sends?
the point was that i think my statement provided should be reasonable in use regardless of frequency of its relevance to your perception of what is the norm. i state this generally due to my opinions being shut down for not being another person’s personal experience.
as i’ve stated, my perspective has been potently reinforced over the course of the whole of my life, regardless of whether your personal experience matches. i think arguing past that is equally arguing from personal experience on any side, but arguing that i cannot make my concerns known or relevant is unreasonable to me.
i also personally believe the denial and ignorance of this topic is responsible for the growing of environments that inevitably leads to bad actors being more encouraged and aggressive in their actions and opinions. that “fire hose” is a lot larger than it should be, because there is denial that ANY bad actors exist within the space on the other side. i’ve also personally been aggrieved by the ‘water pouring’ from the “left.”
to remove myself from that analogy, and make a blatant statement. the experiences that i’ve had on the side of the political spectrum that i consider myself to be on has allowed itself to become inclusive of very harmful and evil actors that have affected me personally, as well as others i personally know.
i’ve also seen bad actors (or ignorant moderates) on the other side of the spectrum be enflamed or more radical by this.
both the social issues that are ignored due to this issue, as well as the pushback from any aggrieved parties are extremely relevant to the topic of this thread.
i’m tired of being dismissed as if my opinion is wrong or irrelevant just because certain people hate the concept it might be relevant to, and don’t want it taking the “energy” away from the “important issues.” i consider that statement as intentionally attempting to dismiss a relevant point purely to avoid possibly acknowledging the topic it is built around, even at the cost of making things worse for everyone involved.
that’s fine if you disagree on the importance of the issues i’m presenting, but i believe they are important and disagree with you that they aren’t.
but i believe they are important and disagree with you that they aren’t.
I’m not disagreeing that your grievances are real or important. I did not say it takes energy away from important issues either. I acknowledged multiple times that everything you said is logically sound.
I just wish you’ll take note of this exchange as one more data point evidencing that maybe it’s not your beliefs that might attract negative responses.
EDIT: I think this is a good moment to short-circuit our conversation, as I feel we’ve just repeated ourselves at least once. As a final word, I also invite you to meditate on why your positioning has attracted pushback while oneofthemladygoats articulated something you resonate with and at the same time managed to have a different perspective on this “both sides” picture. Surely there’s something to learn from them if not from our discussion.
i mean, my whole concern wouldn’t be a concern if responses were like oneofthemladygoats even half of the time the issue was broached. this is the legitimate most accepting or positive response i’ve had to my concerns that i’ve ever experienced. online or in person.
i would say i’ve not stated any opinions that should even be controversial. asking purely for the recognition of bad actors and the harm they might bring, rather than refusal to address or accept anything that can imply that bad actors even can exist around the community.
my issue has never been people disagreeing with my points on the topic, but the adamant refusal to even recognize that certain situations exist, and likely contribute to the personal experience of people who end up feeling hopeless or angry. i think this feeds into situations like op’s article when it occurs to less reasonable or more violent individuals. maybe if someone recognized their issues and tried to understand their perspective, they could have been derailed from whatever echo-chamber they may have been trapped in. this would also help combat the intentionally polarizing articles made to ensure cohesion is never found, because anger gets more clicks. remembering that experience and personal truths exist on different societal and cultural scales. we’re interacting from a very messy starting point.
perhaps we are just going in circles, but i hope to see more positive change in the future. i do think dialogue in some corners have become less aggressive, and this thread has been a good example. if some of the more emotionally unstable people have the ability to communicate their grievances and understand the perspectives they are unaligned with, maybe we can avoid more of these trends. recognizing and stopping the support for bad actors in the community might just help.
i’ll meditate on this, but i implore the same in your direction.
Cheers to more understanding and less aggression in all spaces. I’m sorry for coming across as dismissive, I guess everyone has their things to be adamant about. In the social spaces I’m most often, my guard is up against people who weaponize the imperfection of social movements.
i get that. i think there’s a highly abstracted, or high-dimensional complication to discussing social issues (or anything else) which has never been properly addressed. people are bad at visualizing the scale of variation of experiences and interpretations that exist. even communicating basic information is difficult, with vastly varying interpretation of words/phrases, to differences in local social ecosystems/experienced environments. it is enough to make properly conveying or interpreting information increasingly difficult with the scale and diversity of environments that exist. now that we’re all connected, it’s a lot all at once.
i often end up overly defensive as well due to a history of rather aggressive dismissal or denial of some notable traumas in my life. to the degree of being harassed and insulted in a way i think most would have difficulty not internalizing. my main issue is that people generally suck at communicating and understanding each-other, and the fact that we can’t even communicate about that without being polarized and shut down.
i think fixing that would end better for everyone, regardless of personal history.
Yes, many. Like more parental leave for fathers. Never seen a legitimate discussion attract hate from progressive circles, though, if that’s what you meant to bring up, unless you’re talking about fringe communities of weirdos on Tumblr. Also never seen any hate from the left about gender studies. Or any studies in general, really, except for pseudoscience atrocities like phrenology.
That’s obviously true and at the same time a misleading framing. Yes, every big group of humans includes at least one shitbag. Some groups are clearly more concentrated on that, though.
Are you really, though? By the whole left? Or even by a measurable chunk of it? And are you positively sure it’s because you “don’t outright dismiss anything outside the popular narrative”? Because I’m also not aligned on everything and yet I get along fine with all social movements.
like i said, i could easily frame a more aggressive criticism of people on the right. but i don’t think it’s misleading to state that this perspective is necessary. it is why i specified at the start that it may depend heavily on the specific community. there are billions of people forming their own groups floating around rather large and poorly defined concepts.
my personal experience has been one of violent and aggressive vitriol any time i’ve even suggested that attention go towards men. even the slightest nuance to a conversation being shut down with extreme of insulting claims. online and offline, i’ve been told directly that i shouldn’t even be allowed to speak or have an opinion on anything related to gender or gender related issues, because of the body i was born into.
i don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that my overwhelming experience over the years has not shown contrary to the things i’ve stated here. if it isn’t relevant in your life, perhaps i just had many unfortunate situations. i cannot ignore them, or the fact that they are generally excused almost every time they are brought up, usually with the reasoning that it’s ok because of the direction of the action.
again, i know i’m not the only person with this experience, as i mentioned that one man killed himself because of the very thing i’m attempting to state. i don’t think a critical view at the bad actors in our own spectrum of politics should be faux pas. i also don’t think i should need ten miles of red tape around any mention of an issue that affects men or boys because i’m worried of being affiliated with people and opinions that i hate.
again, if that’s not your experience, then that is fortunate for the area and people your experience revolves around.
i think my experience, even if it were the only one of its kind, should be enough to excuse saying “maybe just make sure you aren’t doing the thing the people you criticize do, while using the same excuses they do.”
because it is a thing that exists and has affected me personally, as well as people i’ve known and loved while growing up. a history of having my reality denied has made it difficult for me to not be adamant about it.
That invitation for introspection is a homeopathic dose of the picture you’re drawing, though.
You literally started this discussion with a sentence that puts zero nuance into the claim that both sides bring hate to gender studies discussions. Intentionally or not, you’re framing both sides as spewing comparable amounts of hate. We know that one side is a fire-hose aimed directly at our faces, so I think the criticism that you get is not because people fundamentally disagree with you that “the left can be intolerant” but because that’s tone deaf in this context.
Let’s step back and remember: this is yet another news article about extremist bigots attacking people, and here you are investing most of your energy in this thread to argue that the left can be intolerant. Technically valid, sure. But do you not see the message it sends?
the point was that i think my statement provided should be reasonable in use regardless of frequency of its relevance to your perception of what is the norm. i state this generally due to my opinions being shut down for not being another person’s personal experience.
as i’ve stated, my perspective has been potently reinforced over the course of the whole of my life, regardless of whether your personal experience matches. i think arguing past that is equally arguing from personal experience on any side, but arguing that i cannot make my concerns known or relevant is unreasonable to me.
i also personally believe the denial and ignorance of this topic is responsible for the growing of environments that inevitably leads to bad actors being more encouraged and aggressive in their actions and opinions. that “fire hose” is a lot larger than it should be, because there is denial that ANY bad actors exist within the space on the other side. i’ve also personally been aggrieved by the ‘water pouring’ from the “left.” to remove myself from that analogy, and make a blatant statement. the experiences that i’ve had on the side of the political spectrum that i consider myself to be on has allowed itself to become inclusive of very harmful and evil actors that have affected me personally, as well as others i personally know. i’ve also seen bad actors (or ignorant moderates) on the other side of the spectrum be enflamed or more radical by this.
both the social issues that are ignored due to this issue, as well as the pushback from any aggrieved parties are extremely relevant to the topic of this thread.
i’m tired of being dismissed as if my opinion is wrong or irrelevant just because certain people hate the concept it might be relevant to, and don’t want it taking the “energy” away from the “important issues.” i consider that statement as intentionally attempting to dismiss a relevant point purely to avoid possibly acknowledging the topic it is built around, even at the cost of making things worse for everyone involved.
that’s fine if you disagree on the importance of the issues i’m presenting, but i believe they are important and disagree with you that they aren’t.
I’m not disagreeing that your grievances are real or important. I did not say it takes energy away from important issues either. I acknowledged multiple times that everything you said is logically sound.
I just wish you’ll take note of this exchange as one more data point evidencing that maybe it’s not your beliefs that might attract negative responses.
EDIT: I think this is a good moment to short-circuit our conversation, as I feel we’ve just repeated ourselves at least once. As a final word, I also invite you to meditate on why your positioning has attracted pushback while oneofthemladygoats articulated something you resonate with and at the same time managed to have a different perspective on this “both sides” picture. Surely there’s something to learn from them if not from our discussion.
i mean, my whole concern wouldn’t be a concern if responses were like oneofthemladygoats even half of the time the issue was broached. this is the legitimate most accepting or positive response i’ve had to my concerns that i’ve ever experienced. online or in person.
i would say i’ve not stated any opinions that should even be controversial. asking purely for the recognition of bad actors and the harm they might bring, rather than refusal to address or accept anything that can imply that bad actors even can exist around the community.
my issue has never been people disagreeing with my points on the topic, but the adamant refusal to even recognize that certain situations exist, and likely contribute to the personal experience of people who end up feeling hopeless or angry. i think this feeds into situations like op’s article when it occurs to less reasonable or more violent individuals. maybe if someone recognized their issues and tried to understand their perspective, they could have been derailed from whatever echo-chamber they may have been trapped in. this would also help combat the intentionally polarizing articles made to ensure cohesion is never found, because anger gets more clicks. remembering that experience and personal truths exist on different societal and cultural scales. we’re interacting from a very messy starting point.
perhaps we are just going in circles, but i hope to see more positive change in the future. i do think dialogue in some corners have become less aggressive, and this thread has been a good example. if some of the more emotionally unstable people have the ability to communicate their grievances and understand the perspectives they are unaligned with, maybe we can avoid more of these trends. recognizing and stopping the support for bad actors in the community might just help.
i’ll meditate on this, but i implore the same in your direction.
Cheers to more understanding and less aggression in all spaces. I’m sorry for coming across as dismissive, I guess everyone has their things to be adamant about. In the social spaces I’m most often, my guard is up against people who weaponize the imperfection of social movements.
i get that. i think there’s a highly abstracted, or high-dimensional complication to discussing social issues (or anything else) which has never been properly addressed. people are bad at visualizing the scale of variation of experiences and interpretations that exist. even communicating basic information is difficult, with vastly varying interpretation of words/phrases, to differences in local social ecosystems/experienced environments. it is enough to make properly conveying or interpreting information increasingly difficult with the scale and diversity of environments that exist. now that we’re all connected, it’s a lot all at once.
i often end up overly defensive as well due to a history of rather aggressive dismissal or denial of some notable traumas in my life. to the degree of being harassed and insulted in a way i think most would have difficulty not internalizing. my main issue is that people generally suck at communicating and understanding each-other, and the fact that we can’t even communicate about that without being polarized and shut down.
i think fixing that would end better for everyone, regardless of personal history.