Then you’re not paying attention.

If that were the case then they wouldn’t have forcibly removed the Palestinians from their own lands stripped them of their homes and livelihoods.>

Are you referring to 1948, during the war started by the Arab League to destroy Israel? If the Arabs had accepted partition in 1937 or 1947, there wouldn’t have been a war. There would be a Jewish and a Palestinian state coexisting to this day. Zionism is nothing more than the belief in Jewish self-determination in our ancestral homeland. That’s it. It does not preclude anyone else’s existence or self-determination. That’s what defines Palestinian nationalism, not Zionism.

You’re welcome to explain to me why I’m wrong.>

As I said above, Israel didn’t start the war that led to the Nakba. The Arab League of Nations did. They lost that war. Twenty years later Egypt declared war again and Israel launched a pre-emptive strike to end it quickly. Six years later Arab countries attacked again, this time on the holiest day in Judaism. Israel won that war too. And now we have the war of 2023-2024, whatever it will be called, which was once again started by Hamas’s barbaric invasion and Hezbollah’s sympathy attacks from the north. There is a clear pattern in this history, and I didn’t even include the Arab violence against Jews that pre-dated 1947.

I hate it because it’s existence comes at the expense of others and they don’t seem to even want to stop.>

Except it doesn’t. See my first response above. The Arabs/Palestinians have had many opportunities to pursue peaceful coexistence and have chosen violence every time. That is simply because they refuse to accept the existence of a Jewish state in the Middle East. There was no Palestinian nationalist movement until Israel was created. It is literally defined by its opposition to Israel’s existence.

Here’s one thing I can say with absolute certainty: If there was a magical way to eliminate the genocidal threats facing Israel and bring about peace in the Middle East without a single civilian death, Israel would take that option. Israel haters won’t accept that because they’ve been brainwashed to think that Israel is itself a genocidal threat, intent on taking over the Middle East. Which, for many people, is a reflection of some underlying antisemitic sentiments.

such as Gazans and Palestinians who just want to sit this one out and live their lives> I will be honest, though. I’m not sure how many of them would fit in this category. And that’s something I’m struggling with because I used to consider myself fairly left-wing and quite tolerant and respectful of diversity. But I just haven’t seen much if anything over the past 100 years to suggest that there is a critical mass of Palestinian people who are interested in peaceful coexistence. Quite the opposite, actually. But I think the coming days and weeks following Sinwar’s death will be very telling because this does represent the best opportunity the people of Gaza have since Israel’s withdrawal in 2005. Will they choose a different future for themselves, one that focuses on hope and peace? Or will they choose to continue the cycle of violence?

Israel will continue to vaporize whomever steps into their place.

And Hezbollah is getting their asses kicked in Lebanon. Even the IDF is shocked at how quickly they’ve made progress. There are reports that captured Hezbollah fighters have admitted they lost their will to fight after Nasrallah was killed. Generals fled.

So are the Palestinians.> I didn’t say they weren’t. That’s the difference between the two sides in this conflict. The vast majority of Jews have always been willing to share the land with the Palestinian people, while the anti-Zionists refuse to accept that.

Yes you did.> Really? That’s your counterargument, a Wiki reference to the Nakba? You really know nothing about the history, do you?

And were being kept in the worlds largest open air prison.> Blame Hamas. There was a time before Hamas took over Gaza that Israelis and Palestinians freely moved across the border. That changed when Hamas started turning Gaza into a terrorist base.

Listen, you clearly know nothing about Israel and Zionism. You’re just blinded by hate and whatever crap you see on TikTok or you learn about from your keffiyeh-wearing college buddies.

LOL, does Israel look weak and vulnerable to you?

Jews are indigenous to the land. Do you know what’s underneath the mosques in Israel? Jewish temples and artifacts dating back thousands of years.

And we didn’t start any of the violence. None of it. Arabs rejected the presence of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East and have been trying (and failing) to destroy it for 100 years.

Once again, the Palestinian people have received billions in foreign aid. They are supported by Iran and Qatar, which are two pretty damn wealthy countries.

You clearly know nothing about Zionism. You are making generalizations about a movement and a people based on the behavior of a small number of extremists. Do you know what that’s called? Bigotry.

And I hate to disappoint you, but anti-Zionist Jews are a very, very small fringe minority. So when you say, “I don’t have a problem with Jews, I have a problem with Zionists,” you’re basically saying, “I don’t have a problem with all Jews, just most of them.”

They have basically destroyed Hamas.

They are kicking the crap out of Hezbollah.

The Iranian regime is significantly weakened.

Some of the world’s most barbaric terror leaders have been eliminated. Nasrallah is dead. Sinwar is dead.

Remarkable successes. Unfortunately some civilians have paid the price, but that’s what happens in war.

I don’t disagree that some soldiers engage in reprehensible behavior. That’s pretty standard in war. But that wasn’t what I have in mind when people say things like “Israel is committing war crimes.” That has a much different connotation to it.

Oh, and I realized later that I chose the wrong word. I actually meant to say ‘prosecute’ rather than ‘perpetrate’. My bad.

The question in my mind now is, in retaliating against Hamas in self defense, if the IDF is going too fast and too hard - with the result that they’re failing to minimize civilian casualties to the fullest extend possible.> That is absolutely a valid question. But most people don’t pose it as a question. They think they are experts on warfare and can make a judgment about the morality of the war based on photos of destroyed buildings or abstract death toll numbers. And let’s face it, most people who are critical of the war are staunchly anti-Israel and don’t think Israel should have responded at all. Many people also don’t understand the big picture. They think this war is just, as you suggest, retaliation for 10/7. But it isn’t. If it were, it would have been more like 2014 - quick, a couple thousand dead, move on.

The attack on 10/7 made Israel realize that it can no longer tolerate genocidal enemies on its borders. The approach to Hamas and Hezbollah had always been containment - Israel can tolerate the occasional rocket attack or one-off terror attack, as long as that’s it. But 10/7 was a wake-up call and Israel has decided they can’t be tolerated anymore. But even more than that, it’s about moving towards a new Middle East. Sinwar decided to pull off this attack when he did because he wanted to put a stop to the Abraham Accords. His hope was that the rest of the Islamist world would join in and fully destroy Israel, but if they didn’t do that at least the moderate Muslim countries would see how evil Israel is and abandon the Accords to side with their radical brothers. Israel sees an opportunity here to seriously weaken the Iranian regime, which will allow the Accords to proceed. I truly believe we are seeing history being made right now. This war will ultimately usher in a new era of peace in the Middle East.

Are you Muslim? You seem to be having a very difficult time with the idea of Jewish success.

It wasn’t meant as a personal attack. Claiming that Netanyahu intentionally allowed 1200 Israelis to be butchered to so he can justify going to war is some seriously irrational conspiracy shit. That being said, I fully agree that he has handled the war the way he has partly to further his own political agenda. And there was a time when I had serious concerns about it and wondered if Israel was headed down the right path. But given the remarkable successes of the past two months, it looks like it was indeed the right path.

https://apnews.com/article/business-middle-east-israel-foreign-aid-gaza-strip-611b2b90c3a211f21185d59f4fae6a90 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/gaza-plagued-poverty-hamas-no-shortage-cash-come-rcna121099 https://www.prio.org/publications/12927

Most of Israel’s support from the US has come in the past several decades. Israel was founded in 1947, fought a war with virtually no support from anyone, and then spent about 20 years building up the country from nothing. It didn’t develop major political alliances until after the Six-Day War in 1967, when countries like the US realized Israel could prove to be a mutually beneficial ally.

I know it’s hard to admit that a few hundred thousand Jewish refugees could actually build a country through their own hard work, but that’s what happened. There’s a reason why the Jewish people have survived and thrived against all odds, and it ain’t because of handouts.

We actually have no idea how many women and children have been killed because the numbers aren’t accurate. But again, the numbers killed don’t define whether the killing was indiscriminate or not. Even accepting the Hamas numbers, experts have concluded that the civilian-to-combatant ratio is among the lowest in the history of urban warfare. https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2024/apr/18/israels-war-against-hamas-posts-lower-civilian-to-/. Plus, as you well know because you see the headlines, the IDF regularly instructs civilians to move from one area to another to avoid the fighting.

The Lancet article was not research, it was an opinion letter. And it was bullshit. They’re just estimating the number of indirect deaths that could occur some time in the future from all sorts of things that could be connected to the war. By the same token, we could estimate the death toll from the Hamas attack on 10/7 as much higher because of the deaths that will result in the future from stress, mental illness, PTSD, etc.

Could Israel have done a better job avoiding civilian casualties? Probably. But that also means they would have passed up on taking out key targets to bring the war to an end. What you also don’t know is how often decisions are made behind the scenes to NOT carry out a strike because it crosses the threshold of proportionality. You only see the strikes that were carried out.

Thanks for acknowledging this simple reality, that the IDF broke the law.> I have no idea if any of their actions have broken the law. I was acknowledging that they are accountable for their behavior.

Yeah, so no country should ask its military to perpetrate a war. And by that I mean no country should be starting a war> It’s figure of speech. In this context I was using it as a synonym for “carry out.” But if you’re implying that Israel started this war, that just has no basis in reality.

They definitely slipped up, that’s for sure. But so suggest that they were complicit - that they allowed 10/7 to happen on purpose - is just insane. Like you’re actually mentally ill.

You really are completely oblivious. Is this what happens when you become brainwashed by Marxist crap?

First of all, do you know how much money Hamas has received in foreign aid to help the people of Gaza? Billions. And that doesn’t include the support they get from Iran in the form of weapons and money. How the hell do you think they could afford to build a tunnel network larger than the London Underground? It has nothing to do with privilege, it’s about how a civilized society chooses to spend its money compared to how a genocidal Islamist terror organization decides to spend its money. Have you not seen the palaces that Hamas leaders have in Qatar? Did you know that Arafat died a billionaire?

Second, Israel built a thriving successful nation from nothing through hard work, innovation, and a shared commitment to building a future for the Jewish people. They fought off genocidal enemies and survived and thrived against all odds. If you could put aside your hateful ideology for a minute you might appreciate it for the incredible success story it is.

Are you actually suggesting Israel fabricated 10/7 to justify going to war with Hamas? Or do you admit it happened but you’re just nitpicking over specific stories? Are you aware of the fact that terrorists wore GoPro cameras to record their atrocities, and even recorded their torture on the phones of their victims?

Are you serious?

Hamas deliberately puts their civilians in harm’s way. That’s why they have dug 500km of tunnels underneath cities. That’s why they operate out of hospitals and schools. They want civilians to die and the more the better.

Israel, on the other hand, has spent billions to protect its citizens. And not just the Iron Dome either. There is a law in Israel that all new buildings and homes must be built with safe rooms and bomb shelters. They have a highly advanced early warning system so that civilians know to find shelter and exactly how much time they have to do so. Most of the rockets and missiles that have gotten through have been allowed to fall in open areas where they won’t do damage.

Did you even read that article? It nitpicks over specific stories but doesn’t dispute claims about civilians burned alive.

You’re clearly a lost cause. You have no critical thinking ability whatsoever, you just keep spitting back propaganda. Story after story, accusation after accusation, has been debunked as propaganda. The hospital bombing. The Flour Massacre. The famine. The children with sniper bullets in their skulls. All of it bullshit.

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-middle-east-68906919 “Ms Donoghue explained that the court decided the Palestinians had a “plausible right” to be protected from genocide and that South Africa had the right to present that claim in the court.”

But the IDF is accountable for its own actions, and some of these seem to break both international and Israeli law> Yes, that is true. But no military can perpetrate a war without killing civilians. It’s impossible. International law only requires that they take reasonable steps to minimize civilian casualties. The fact that civilians have been killed in Gaza is not evidence of genocide, nor does it establish that Israel is morally wrong in their actions.

The one thing that people can’t seem to grasp about Israel, because they are so blinded by their hatred and ideological brainwashing, is that Israelis don’t want war. That will become clear in time, when the Iranian regime is eventually dealt with, the Abraham Accords move forward, and we enter a new era of peace in the Middle East. And maybe then, just maybe, all the Western anti-Zionists will say, “Hmm, I guess Israel wasn’t the bad guy after all.”