From the guy’s own mouth.

  • Syldon@feddit.uk
    link
    fedilink
    English
    arrow-up
    42
    arrow-down
    4
    ·
    1 year ago

    There is nothing in this that reflects the title. It’s nothing more than passive propaganda. They are relying on people to just read the title and not open the link.

    What is actually said is:

    And let me just end by saying that this reflects the political reality that nations are sovereign. Nations decide themselves, and Ukraine has of course the right to decide its own path. And it’s up to Ukraine and NATO Allies to decide when Ukraine becomes a member. Russia cannot veto membership for any sovereign independent state in Europe.

    • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      51
      arrow-down
      2
      ·
      1 year ago

      The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.

      At least he had some good jokes to warm up the crowd!

      I think I’ve told you before that I know it’s hard to allocate money for defence, because most politicians want to spend money on health, on education, on infrastructure instead of defence.

    • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      52
      arrow-down
      4
      ·
      1 year ago

      And let me just end by saying that this reflects the political reality that nations are sovereign.

      I mean that’s just factually untrue. Every nations sovereignty is restricted by geopolitical realities. No nation can just do whatever they desire, including joining certain alliances. Mexico will not be joining BRICS for instance, because of the geopolitical situation. And that’s not even a military alliance, which NATO is! Europeans are not special, they have to play by the same rules as everybody else. To claim otherwise is to ignore the reality on the ground right now, both in Ukraine and globally.

      Also none of this factors in that joining NATO, by definition, involves giving up some part of your nations sovereignty. NATO in reality acts as an extended arm of the US military and it’s industrial complex, and in joining, countries are subjected to this reality of Atlanticism.

      • Syldon@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        4
        ·
        1 year ago

        Mexico will not join BRICs because they would then have to leave USMCA trade agreement. Cuba, your nearest neighbour, can do whatever it wants. The US does not get to dictate anymore by military might. They have done in the past. To do so today would bring other trade deals into conflict. The EU would be very against this. This does not mean the US cannot use its financial might, which it clearly does and often.

        Also none of this factors in that joining NATO, by definition, involves giving up some part of your nations sovereignty. NATO in reality acts as an extended arm of the US military and it’s industrial complex, and in joining, countries are subjected to this reality of Atlanticism.

        Simply not true. Being part of NATO is not an aggressive pact. It is only enacted if another member is attacked. One or more members being aggressive does not mean the rest have to follow. The US and the UK attacked Iran as individual nations. The US has the biggest say in NATO because they spend more than anyone else by quite some distance. Something that is changing because of the Russian attempts to annex Ukraine into its own borders.

        • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          37
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          One or more members being aggressive does not mean the rest have to follow.

          But they usually always do, because of the implication…

          You are aware that the US and UK were not the only countries to deploy troops to Iraq (not Iran, as you mistakenly claim). There was a whole NATO training operation involving 13 NATO member states. 20 of the current 31 NATO members had some form of troop deployment in Iraq between 2003 and 2011.

          Cuba, your nearest neighbour, can do whatever it wants. The US does not get to dictate anymore by military might. They have done in the past. To do so today would bring other trade deals into conflict. The EU would be very against this

          I am not American, and it’s quite clear the US does use it’s military might when it needs to, to dictate the order of the world, and there is nothing that the EU can do about it. Precisely because their sovereignty is curtailed due to being US vassal states. Of which NATO membership is a key part. This includes actions against the EU. Unless you want to argue that the nordstream gas pipelines just spontaneously combusted.

          • Syldon@feddit.uk
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            1 year ago

            If it was a NATO aggressive action then ALL would be involved not just a portion.

            As for the US using it military might, it has been bitten enough to know it is just a waste of money. Unless you have a costed strategic end game policy, simply removing dictatorships is not enough.

    • Hexadecimalkink@lemmy.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      49
      arrow-down
      17
      ·
      1 year ago

      Actually he also said (in the link):

      “The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.”

        • aaaaaaadjsf [he/him, comrade/them]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          53
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          edit-2
          1 year ago

          NATO is not a friend or friendly force, it is one of the great evils of our time, anyone arguing otherwise just wants to bomb third world countries.

          Ask the citizens of Libya and Iraq how defensive and friendly NATO is.

          The process of “joining NATO” is not anything equivalent to making friends, any country joining NATO essentially becomes a vassal for US interests. There’s a reason why Sweden and Finland held out for so long.

          • edge [he/him]@hexbear.net
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            17
            ·
            1 year ago

            There’s a reason why Sweden and Finland held out for so long.

            And that they’re doing it with no say from the people.

        • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          51
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          1 year ago

          “If you invite your serial killer gun nut friend to build a tree stand on your property pointed at my house, we’re going to have problems”

              • 𝕽𝖚𝖆𝖎𝖉𝖍𝖗𝖎𝖌𝖍@midwest.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                edit-2
                1 year ago

                Eh. It’s the metaphor. Ukraine is a sovereign state, and the argument about what Ukraine does or doesn’t do on its own soil - or who it invites over to play - being somehow justification for invasion is hypocritical tripe. Russia’s been invading other sovereign states, and stockpiles weapons in its vassel states; it’s an “existential threat” to every one of its neighbors, except the strong ones like China.

                The arguments Putin used for invasion about Ukraine abusing its citizens were better, except for being lies. They should have stuck with that one, except they had no evidence and nobody believed it. It still made a better story and was less hypocritical.

                Also, behaving like a communist with your country when your neighbor is an imperialist dictatorship is only a recipe for becoming a member of an imperialist dictatorship.

                • StalinForTime [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  22
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Firstly, I’m not sure your understanding of the meaning or relevance of ‘hypocrisy’ is very clear.

                  Secondly, you’re introducing a moralistic discourse about this when the first issue is what caused or explained the Russian intervention in Ukraine. Despite the evidence overwhelmingly pointing to NATO expansion, the fact that you are denying it when even Stoltenberg and Blinken are basically at the point of admitting it, implicit as those admissions may be, is pretty comic.

                  If you think that the Ukrainian government was not only not abusing, but in fact not committing acts amounting to ethnically cleansing Russians in eastern Ukraine, you have been living under a rock and its disgusting that you can utter such bullshit with such nonchalance and impunity. Contrary to, say, accusation of genocide in Xinjiang, for which there is no hard concrete evidence (in fact evidence and reason point to the contrary), there are mountains of evidence in every form of media, whether video, documents, government announcements, proving that there was repressive military and political action being taken against the Russophone and ethinically Russian, or simply anti-nationalist Ukrainians of the East, by the Ukrainian ultra-nationalist regime. There have been mass disappearances, lynchings, bombings, assassinations, and we could go on. Again, there is too much evidence for this in every form for any one person to peruse the entirety of, so either you are pig-shit ignorant, or you are lying. Trouble is you are doing it in the wrong place.

                  Your last sentence is barely comprehensible quite frankly. If you think that reocognizing that a state should not aggressively expand a demonstrably imperialist organisation and in the process break all related previous agreements and promises in doing so, in a way that every party involved is fully aware will be perceived as a threat to the national security of one of the concerned countries, if one wants to avoid hot conflict, given the self-evident realities of realpolitik, is communist or marxist, then go off I guess.

                  • Ok, so, in all seriousness, thanks for making the attempt at a rational and detailed response.

                    However, and I say this in all honestly, I have got to start paying better attention to the homeserver of the people I’m responding to. While I appreciate the time you put into your response, I’ve found that my mood is greatly improved when I don’t engage the hexabear swarm.

                    So, I apologize that you took that time and I’m just going to blow it off. My bad for not looking at the usernames more closely.

            • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              31
              ·
              1 year ago

              Cool, now your brother is dead and you lost half your property. Your serial killer gun nut buddy doesn’t give a damn about you so he didn’t show up to fight himself, but now he holds the mortgage to your house because he lent you weapons to fight and lose.

              Was it worth it?

      • Syldon@feddit.uk
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        12
        arrow-down
        5
        ·
        1 year ago

        Some Presidents should stick to declaring only things they have control over.

          • Syldon@feddit.uk
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            1 year ago

            There is only one country that is constantly threatening a nuclear attack. That country is not in NATO.

            • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              44
              ·
              1 year ago

              There is only one country that is constantly threatening a nuclear attack. That country is not in NATO.

              The only country in the world with an official “first strike” nuclear policy is the United States.

              • Syldon@feddit.uk
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                Not arguing there. But this was 80 years ago. You would think that making threats of this nature would be something that you would show restraint considering we have a history.

                • 420blazeit69 [he/him]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  42
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  The U.S. is the only country on the planet that has a first-strike policy, i.e., that as a standing matter threatens to use nukes. This is not 80 years ago, this is right now.

                  • Syldon@feddit.uk
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    1
                    arrow-down
                    3
                    ·
                    1 year ago

                    Might be an idea not to attack a country with that policy then eh.

            • freagle@lemmygrad.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              44
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              1 year ago

              There is only one country that used nukes against a live target, ever, and they did it twice, to civilian population centers in the middle of active peace negotiations.

              There is only one country with nuclear capabilities deployed in over 80 countries under its direct control. There is only one country that has unilaterally pulled out of every nuclear treaty in history. There is only one country that publishes news articles about and has leadership in press conferences talking about winning nuclear war and about developing mini nukes. There is only one country working to undermine the MAD doctrine. There is only one country that just sent a nuclear-armed submarine to one its vassal states as a show of willingness.

              • nicman24@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                3
                ·
                1 year ago

                ah yes because ww2 was a happy time for all and no other countries did anything compared to that. smart.

                There is only one country that just sent a nuclear-armed submarine to one its vassal states as a show of willingness.

                the russians literally lost so many nuclear subs in non native waters that the cia tried to grab one with a oversized arcade shop claw.

                • freagle@lemmygrad.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  arrow-down
                  2
                  ·
                  1 year ago

                  No other country in the history of humanity dropped nukes outside of tests. No other country nukes civilians. No other country nukes civilians in a country that was surrendering. There is no way around it.

                  I’m not talking about the existence of subs in non-native waters. I’m talking about surfacing a sub and announcing it’s presence in South Korea as a sabre rattle. Russia didn’t surface subs off the coast of Florida, it didn’t surface subs in a port in Mexico. Because Russia isn’t trying to get in a war with the USA. It’s the USA that keeps expanding its military presence every year, believing it has the mandate to establish a command center for each region of the planet, using slogans like “the border is everywhere” to organize it’s border patrol, and expanding the presence of its nuclear capabilities into 80+ countries.

                  No, there is no comparison.

              • Syldon@feddit.uk
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                1 year ago

                They dropped a bomb on a nation that was guilty of murdering up to 10m people. They were also not the initial aggressive beligerant. They do not have control with 80 nations, they have a non aggression pact. Yep, there are parts of the US media that is screwed up. That comes with free press. Does Russia have a free press? There is only one country that is looking to test out the mad doctrine, who also sent nuclear weapons to a vassal state: Russia.

                • ShimmeringKoi [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  36
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  hitler-detector As always, the good and conscientious liberal is never more than two steps away from trying to justify the nuclear anihilation of two cities full of noncombatants in a country that was already surrendering. Incredible.

                  Next they will ignore this and continue to make things up about their state- designated “enemies” to make them sound worse. Sure, we may have lied about every war before this for profit but this time the Badguy Villainman really is Hitler 2.0, we swear! This time we really are on the right side of history, so shut up and support these Nazis!

                  God damn, I’ve lived in America all my life and I’m so sick of our bullshit, and I don’t even have to worry about stepping on any of the unexploded freedom we leave everywhere else. And if you live in the UK or something, no you don’t, it’s Damp America, it’s all America.

                  This post is dedicated to the brave Mujahadeen fighters of Afghanistan

            • OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              40
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              edit-2
              1 year ago

              You are mistaken. The US is in NATO. Unless you mean to tell me their 1000 military bases encircling Russia and China are somehow not a provocation?

            • OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              4
              arrow-down
              1
              ·
              1 year ago

              Just because you close your eyes to what is happening in the world, doesn’t mean the rest of us are blind too.

              • nicman24@kbin.social
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                arrow-down
                2
                ·
                1 year ago

                my brother in none, if they wanted to use nukes they would have. they know that their equipment is shit and that the us and relevant countries have like 10 different active systems for dealing with the 5 icbms what are actually functional.

                us on the other hand… also china

                • OrnluWolfjarl@lemmygrad.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  1 year ago

                  Ofcourse. They dont want to start a nuclear war because their systems are shit… Yeah, I’m sure it’s nice inside the bubble you are living in.

                  Lol, chinamongering now.

      • Umbrias@beehaw.org
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        arrow-down
        3
        ·
        1 year ago

        This is so hilariously weak who did you think you would convince with this quote blatantly showing your title to be a lie. Lmao.

    • StalinForTime [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      1 year ago

      Then lastly on Sweden. First of all, it is historic that now Finland is member of the Alliance. And we have to remember the background. The background was that President Putin declared in the autumn of 2021, and actually sent a draft treaty that they wanted NATO to sign, to promise no more NATO enlargement. That was what he sent us. And was a pre-condition for not invade Ukraine. Of course we didn’t sign that.

      The opposite happened. He wanted us to sign that promise, never to enlarge NATO. He wanted us to remove our military infrastructure in all Allies that have joined NATO since 1997, meaning half of NATO, all the Central and Eastern Europe, we should remove NATO from that part of our Alliance, introducing some kind of B, or second class membership. We rejected that.

      So he went to war to prevent NATO, more NATO, close to his borders.

      Learn to read.